Joyce and Barry Vissell: A Mother's Final Gift

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[music]

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You're listening to Aging Today, the podcast where together we explore the options to

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aging on your terms.

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When I get older, lose a higher, many years from now, we used to be sending me a fountain

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time birthday greetings out of wine if I did not till quarter to three would you like

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the dawn will you still leave me will you still leave me when I'm sixty four.

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And now the podcast where together we discuss proactive aging on your terms connecting to

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the professional advice of our special guests while creating better days throughout the

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aging process.

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Now here's your host, Mark Turnbull.

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And welcome back to another lively discussion on Aging Today, we are the podcast where together

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we explore the many options to aging on your terms.

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for all of us out there and we're just at various stages.

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And if you want to reach out to me your host Mark Turnbull all you got to do is type in

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Mark with a K it's mark at aging today.us.

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Well, we are very blessed to have on the show today some friends of the show they've been

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on here in the past and great interviews that we've had with them with their life's work

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and today is no exception.

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We are going to be talking with Joyce and Barry Vistel and they have written a book.

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It's called a Mother's Final Gift and we're going to take a deep dive into that.

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Joyce and Barry, welcome to aging today.

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Thank you.

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Hi Mark.

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Yeah, so it's great to have you guys back on.

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Remind our listening audience, our last conversation we talked and I should have prepared

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on it for this and I didn't but what did we talk about the last time you guys were on?

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The last time was shortly after our tenth book was published which is a couple of miracles,

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one couple more than a few miracles and it was yeah, it was all about really it's our story

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going from miracle to miracle, stringing them all together.

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Yeah, and the book is a chock full of the miracles and the things that how you guys have lived

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your life and you've lived it well.

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Now we're going to continue that conversation but we're going to take a little bit different

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dive into your lives but we're going to do it through the eyes in particular of Joyce

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and her mother and Barry yourself.

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You finally became a son and she became your mother.

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I think that was remarkable, a great story and that will get into that a little bit later.

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But for those that don't know you, we always start out our show with what's in your story.

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Tell our listening audience those that are tuning in for the first time, a little bit

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about you and what's in your story.

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Well, we're a couple and we've been together for 59 years, it's a long time and we decided

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probably 50 years ago that we would work together and help people in their relationships.

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So we started, first of all, we're a, Barry's a doctor and MD and I'm a nurse and we decided

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to help people in their relationships through workshops, through counseling and eventually

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we started writing books 43 years ago, we published our first book and that's what we've been

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doing all these years is helping people to have better relationships, helping people to

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tune into their heart to their own guidance, their own, their power and their beauty.

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What do you go ahead, Bernie?

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Well, last month, Joyce and I both turned 78 and we hope that we have actually many more

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years because this work is so rewarding, you know, even to, like we're doing a couple's

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reaching starting this week for this weekend and just to watch the possibility of couples

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who are actually really shut down to each other, to watch them open up again and have a whole

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new relationship.

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I mean, how gratifying is that?

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Yeah.

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And for those that are listening right now and they are curious about your couple's retreats,

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describe a little bit about what it's like, what can they expect when they come and then

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how do they get there?

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I mean, where would they go to learn more about the retreats?

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Well, people usually learn through our website, you know, what we tell people at the beginning

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to expect to fall more deeply in love with their partner and almost always, not 100%,

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but almost always, that's what happens because we do deep appreciations, we do that kind

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of thing, but we also go really deeply into their vulnerabilities, their fears, perhaps

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things that they haven't shared with their partner.

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We ask them to feel their need for each other and to work with everything in a very

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very positive light and people open up to each other, couples open up to each other and

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because it's a group and they're hearing from other couples, they don't feel so alone

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in their struggles and that's enormous value because most people look out and they see

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other couples and they imagine that everyone is happy, everything is perfect, but just look

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at Facebook and everybody is totally happy.

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You know, people, all our relationships have struggles, have challenges.

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Us too, we've had a lot of deep challenges and it's all, you know, we work with it and

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it's all brought us to a place of being even closer together.

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Yeah, and that came out in our first conversation, you know, with your, when you told the story

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about your story and how you guys have lived your life and it's not a book that was anything

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that sugar-coded, it wasn't glossed over.

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I mean, you gave all the warts and all of the warts and all.

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Yeah, and some of the warts were pretty big, like me having a fair with Joyce's best friend.

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That was a big wart.

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But you've overcome that and you're a living example and that's what I love about you

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too is that you're so transparent.

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And from your life lessons, we all can learn because one of the things I used to tell my

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boys when they were born, I said, you know, wow, this is a great opportunity for a legacy

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that I get to pass on and I'm going, well, what is that legacy?

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And the legacy that I determined was that life is about relationships.

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And as we build those relationships throughout our lives, whether it's in work, play, business

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or whatever, that, you know, it's about loving, respecting and protecting all of our relationships.

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So I, I'm totally on board with you too.

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And I love the way you write that you put your adventures on paper so that we can all experience

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and relate to what you've gone through in your lives.

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Yeah.

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So this, that brings us to this book, which I don't know if you can see it right now.

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Yeah.

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Well, I have a copy in here in front of me.

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Great.

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Yeah.

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It's called a Mother's Final Gift.

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And so what was, what was the inspiration behind the writing of a Mother's Final Gift?

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So my mother, when I was 27 years old, she took me aside and she said, my mother was totally

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healthy.

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So it's not like death was imminent or anything.

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But she said, when it's my turn to die, I want you to be happy for me.

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And it just, it felt like the strangest thing.

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Why would my mother say such a thing?

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And I said, I said, I could never do that ever.

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And she said, I want you to do that.

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I want you to be excited for me because I am excited.

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I know that my creator has planned the best adventure for the last.

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And that's how my mother lived her life.

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She wasn't afraid to die.

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She lived fully and completely loving.

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But you know, a lot of people lived their life afraid of that final thing.

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She was not afraid.

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And she really, truly felt that it was going to be her best adventure.

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Now my mother died in a way, you know, as some people die in their sleep, some people die,

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you know, of a heart attack and they're gone really quickly.

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This was a slow death and it wasn't, it was like the kind of death that none of us really

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want because she was in a lot of pain.

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She was in continent.

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She was helpless, but you know, she didn't let any of it get in her way of knowing that this

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was to be the greatest adventure.

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It was kind of like, yeah, she just didn't let any of it get in the way of her joy.

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Yeah.

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What was at the center of her life that made her so different that she had such a clear

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perspective on her life and how she wanted to end it?

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Well, her mother before you say anything, I want everybody to look at her.

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Okay, look at this picture.

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I don't know.

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Can you see it?

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No.

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And actually this is on audio, this is audio only this, oh, I'm sorry.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah.

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No, it's okay.

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So there you go.

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Yeah.

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So you didn't have to imagine.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, paint the picture for us.

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Yeah.

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So my mother's parents were immigrants that came from Sweden and they had, they were very

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poor.

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My grandfather was a coal miner and they had seven children.

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My mother was the seventh child and then her mother got pregnant again and she actually

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died with giving birth to the eighth child.

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And before she died, she told my mother who was only six years old.

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She said, I will never leave you.

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You will always feel my love.

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And that's the way my mother lived her life.

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Feeling that her mother would always, would always be close.

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And her father died when she was 16.

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So basically she was an orphan when she was, she was 16.

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But it forced her into a deep spiritual life.

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And I feel that that's why she, she had this feeling that death is a great adventure.

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And so when my mother was dying, even though she had all these things, the helplessness,

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the pain, all the things that none of us want, she also was so aware of the place where

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she was going.

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She was probably more, her consciousness was more where she was going than where she was

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lying in her bed.

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And she would communicate to us that her actual dying process was about a month, a month

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long.

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And she would communicate things that she was seeing.

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It was extraordinary.

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And Barry, Barry and I and our three children took care of her.

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Our son was only 17 at the time.

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And he did what he could do.

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He didn't do as much as the rest of us.

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Our daughters were in their 20s.

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And it was the five of us that took, that took care of her.

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And you mentioned family before and how important family is.

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It was such a really a wonderful opportunity for us to have Joyce's mom in her last years

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living right above our garage in a little apartment.

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So it's right next, right part of our, part of where we were living.

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And that was extraordinary to go through, to be with her day to day in her dying process.

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And to learn, you know, it sounds like she was a remarkable person as I was reading, you

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know, the story.

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And I'm curious about her.

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And you know, she was a very faith-driven individual.

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She put a lot of her trust and her well-being into the church, the people that

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she, you know, surrounded herself with.

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And what was it about her as an individual that that became so important?

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Was there a significant event in her life?

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Or was there, you know, did she go through a death and dying another adventure with relatives

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before that that that shaped her vision and view of dying and death?

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Yeah, let me, can I emphasize something?

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Yeah, but then I wanted to.

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Okay, go ahead.

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Okay, so when I was 20, I almost died, seriously.

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I was in the hospital in New York City and I had septicemium.

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And the doctor said, called my parents who lived in Buffalo, New York and told them that I was

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dying and that they needed to, they needed to come immediately if they wanted to see me

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alive.

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I was a nursing student at the time.

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And there was a blizzard in Buffalo and there was, there was only one flight out with one

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seat, so my mother, my mother took that, that's, that's that seat.

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And while she was on the plane, she, she realized that she could, she might not see me.

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I might have already died by the time she got to New York City and she felt she could either

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crumble into tears and fear or she could completely trust in God.

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And so she decided to completely trust in God and to put my, my life in the, in the, in the

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hands of God.

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And as she did so fully with her, with her feeling and her mind and her heart, she felt this,

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this presence of love surround her and that presence of love stayed with her throughout

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the rest of the plane ride and the taxi ride into the, to the hospital.

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And when she got to the hospital, there was, I had actually left my body and I was watching

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my mother come in and there was a circle of doctors outside the room.

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And as my mother approached, they said, you know, Mrs. Wallenberg, I'm sorry, there's nothing

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more we can do and we feel that, that we're losing your daughter.

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And do you want us to come in the room because she doesn't look the same?

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And my mother said, no, I'm going in by my mother.

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And she still felt this, this light, this presence around her.

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She opened the door and there was the minute she opened the door.

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I felt a light go into my heart and I came out of the coma that I had, that I was in and

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my mother walked over and she said, I'm here now.

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And I said, I need you so much.

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And I feel 100% that it was my mother's love and her, her trust in God that really brought

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me back.

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Whereas the doctors and all, this was, this was the Columbia University Hospital, the best

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one in New York City, everything that could be done was being done.

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So the, even the best medical knowledge could not bring me back.

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But her carrying this light brought, brought me back to life.

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And I think, I think that that had, that also had a very big influence on my mother.

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Yeah.

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What, what I wanted to add was just going back to what Joyce said about, about when, when

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Louise was six years old and her mother was dying after giving birth to the last, or

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younger sibling.

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And what she said, that she said Louise, I will always be with you.

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And, and she took that in deeply and so for the rest, from age six, for the rest of her

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life, she knew that her mother, even though her mother didn't have a body, her mother was

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with her.

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And that is a tremendous faith enhancer, right?

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To know this, to know that, that there's this unseen love, you know, and that translates

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to God, it translates to spirituality.

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But that's how she lived her life.

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And at the same time, she was in other ways, very ordinary.

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And she had, you know, she had all of the quirks and, and problems and, you know, we had

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trouble with her sometimes.

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And she had trouble with me, even in the beginning, she had trouble with me because I was Jewish

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and she was Christian and she, you know, he said, Joyce, what are you doing with a Jewish

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guy?

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You know, so we had to work through all of this.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And, and the greatest of these is love.

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Yes, exactly.

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And sometimes love is a process, isn't it?

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It is.

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But, but the thing, the thing that was so beautiful about her dying is that she was so aware of

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the world that she was going into and she, she was able to report back like some of the

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things that she would say was, the music is so beautiful.

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I've never heard music like that.

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Or, or another time she'd say, I never knew that love could be so powerful.

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She would, she would give us these, these gems and she would, she would give them to our

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children too.

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So it, it, I, we've, the reason I wrote the book is that the five of us were so transformed.

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Yeah.

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And how could we fear, fear death when my mother entered into it with such a feeling of,

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of inspiration?

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And her hope was she wanted me to play the hallelujah chorus as she, as she took her last breath

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because she said, I'm going to march right, right up to heaven, which, and we did, we did

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that.

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We did that.

274
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:49,920
Well, it was just, it was really such extraordinary experience.

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And another thing that happened was my mother had a lot of, a lot of visitors and, and it, and

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it's a certain point.

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I said, do you know, she just, was she actually said, I, I really can't have any more visitors.

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I need to focus on my trip now to, to, to heaven, which is what she did.

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But at one point, I was going up to check on her and I, I heard my mother like talking

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to all these people.

281
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Only I could only hear her voice.

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But she was saying like she was mentioning all of her siblings that had passed on before

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and her parents.

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And she was having this animated conversation.

285
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And of course, with my father also.

286
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And I walked in like, well, it sounds like a party.

287
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And the room was empty.

288
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And it was just my mom in her hospital bed and she said, Joyce, my whole family came.

289
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Isn't it beautiful?

290
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And she pointed across the room and she said, there's, there's my sister, Gurd and my sister

291
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Dora.

292
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And there's my mom.

293
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There's my dad.

294
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And she said, of course, your dad is, is right here and she would point and I wasn't seeing

295
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anything.

296
00:24:08,940 --> 00:24:15,220
But I knew something so important was, was, was happening.

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She was having this visit from her family to reassure her that she was coming home to a beautiful

298
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place.

299
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And then tell about then all of a sudden, right.

300
00:24:29,300 --> 00:24:35,580
And then she said, oh, Bill, what are you doing here?

301
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She pointed to the door and she said to me, Bill just walked in.

302
00:24:40,180 --> 00:24:41,180
He's still alive.

303
00:24:41,180 --> 00:24:42,820
Why is he here?

304
00:24:42,820 --> 00:24:45,060
She was very confused about it.

305
00:24:45,060 --> 00:24:46,060
And I was too.

306
00:24:46,060 --> 00:24:53,500
I knew this man to be a minister and she was very, very, very, very close to him.

307
00:24:53,500 --> 00:25:00,180
And it was several months after my mother passed on that we, I got a letter from Esther, his

308
00:25:00,180 --> 00:25:06,140
wife telling us that Bill had passed on shortly before my mother.

309
00:25:06,140 --> 00:25:13,540
None of us knew that, but he came into that room to, to, to be, to be with her.

310
00:25:13,540 --> 00:25:19,980
It just makes it so real, you know, when, that, that were never really separated from those

311
00:25:19,980 --> 00:25:21,780
that we love.

312
00:25:21,780 --> 00:25:25,700
What, what was it about her?

313
00:25:25,700 --> 00:25:30,900
Did she have a spiritual gift where she could see these things?

314
00:25:30,900 --> 00:25:36,540
Or do you think it was, I mean, how would you, how would you describe it and, and how would

315
00:25:36,540 --> 00:25:42,180
you respond to the skeptic that says, well, she's just hallucinating and whatever, you know,

316
00:25:42,180 --> 00:25:44,020
how do you respond to all that?

317
00:25:44,020 --> 00:25:47,100
Because it was, it seemed, it was very real.

318
00:25:47,100 --> 00:25:51,380
And it's, it's actually kind of a common experience.

319
00:25:51,380 --> 00:25:56,340
The hospice, hospice nurses described it, this is not at all unusual.

320
00:25:56,340 --> 00:26:02,540
My father, what was an engineer, he always saw things kind of black and white.

321
00:26:02,540 --> 00:26:06,340
He, his, for recreation, he read engineering books.

322
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He, he was a scientist.

323
00:26:09,460 --> 00:26:15,820
And my dad, not a stomatic, but he had the same experience two days before he died.

324
00:26:15,820 --> 00:26:20,780
He woke up and there were his parents in the room.

325
00:26:20,780 --> 00:26:23,220
And he, he told my mother about it.

326
00:26:23,220 --> 00:26:31,020
So I just, I just, I think it happens even, even into ordinary people who really are skeptics.

327
00:26:31,020 --> 00:26:32,020
Yeah.

328
00:26:32,020 --> 00:26:35,460
They have these, these visits.

329
00:26:35,460 --> 00:26:42,020
And I think, do we have, you know, it's, it's, it's not about, I know it's hard, you know,

330
00:26:42,020 --> 00:26:48,500
there, you, you can't talk people out of the feeling that this is a hallucination, right?

331
00:26:48,500 --> 00:26:49,500
Right.

332
00:26:49,500 --> 00:26:56,260
But, but there's something that is so inspiring about what happened.

333
00:26:56,260 --> 00:26:59,940
And that's why, that's why we, we had to make it into a book.

334
00:26:59,940 --> 00:27:04,060
It just, it touched our hearts and opened us deeply.

335
00:27:04,060 --> 00:27:08,980
I want to share, I want to share one kind of funny experience.

336
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At one point, we actually thought she might be dead.

337
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And we tiptoed up to her apartment.

338
00:27:17,540 --> 00:27:21,700
And we walked in and I took a peek across the room.

339
00:27:21,700 --> 00:27:26,740
It looked like she was dead, you know, I couldn't see her breathing at all.

340
00:27:26,740 --> 00:27:30,140
And I whispered to Joyce, I think she's passed.

341
00:27:30,140 --> 00:27:36,220
And so we just very quietly and reverently walked close to her.

342
00:27:36,220 --> 00:27:41,100
And suddenly her eyes opened and she yelled out, "Mary Christmas!"

343
00:27:41,100 --> 00:27:45,940
And this was when, this was August, right?

344
00:27:45,940 --> 00:27:48,780
And she said, "Isn't it Christmas?

345
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Look at all the lights.

346
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There's so much light around."

347
00:27:53,980 --> 00:27:56,420
And that's what she was saying.

348
00:27:56,420 --> 00:27:57,420
Yeah.

349
00:27:57,420 --> 00:27:58,420
Yeah.

350
00:27:58,420 --> 00:27:59,420
Meanwhile, we almost died.

351
00:27:59,420 --> 00:28:00,420
Our hearts are not.

352
00:28:00,420 --> 00:28:01,420
Yeah, I can imagine.

353
00:28:01,420 --> 00:28:02,420
Yeah, sure.

354
00:28:02,420 --> 00:28:05,900
So how did you, go ahead?

355
00:28:05,900 --> 00:28:12,860
Another reason that we, I wanted to write this book is, is, is just to inform people how

356
00:28:12,860 --> 00:28:17,740
special it is to include hospice into the dying process.

357
00:28:17,740 --> 00:28:24,660
So many people feel that, well, you've called hospice maybe two days before a person dies.

358
00:28:24,660 --> 00:28:30,140
And that's what generally is done.

359
00:28:30,140 --> 00:28:37,740
But hospice is wanting, at least the hospice in our city is wanting people to call much

360
00:28:37,740 --> 00:28:43,140
earlier so that a real relationship is formed.

361
00:28:43,140 --> 00:28:50,260
And we had a real relationship with the nurses, especially with the chaplain who came, who

362
00:28:50,260 --> 00:28:54,900
came every week and was just so comforting.

363
00:28:54,900 --> 00:28:57,540
We had a volunteer, this young man.

364
00:28:57,540 --> 00:29:02,660
I asked my mother what kind of volunteer she wanted and she wanted a young man.

365
00:29:02,660 --> 00:29:07,340
And it was like, he was like 45.

366
00:29:07,340 --> 00:29:10,420
And she treated it like a date.

367
00:29:10,420 --> 00:29:14,580
He would bring her flowers and talk to her about golf.

368
00:29:14,580 --> 00:29:23,060
And these people from hospice were just an extraordinary help and support.

369
00:29:23,060 --> 00:29:29,100
That was another reason for people not to be afraid to call hospice.

370
00:29:29,100 --> 00:29:35,380
People feel, you know, if I call hospice, then people are going to think, oh, they're

371
00:29:35,380 --> 00:29:36,660
going to die tomorrow.

372
00:29:36,660 --> 00:29:40,540
I shouldn't call them, but it's important.

373
00:29:40,540 --> 00:29:42,980
That's a beautiful, beautiful thing.

374
00:29:42,980 --> 00:29:43,980
Yeah.

375
00:29:43,980 --> 00:29:50,820
Or there's the fear that if I do call hospice, it's going to push her death even more imminent

376
00:29:50,820 --> 00:29:51,820
than it was.

377
00:29:51,820 --> 00:29:52,820
Right.

378
00:29:52,820 --> 00:29:56,260
And it's really interesting how, as humans, we think that way.

379
00:29:56,260 --> 00:29:59,060
And I'm not sure why we think that way.

380
00:29:59,060 --> 00:30:02,980
But it's very common amongst us.

381
00:30:02,980 --> 00:30:03,980
All of us.

382
00:30:03,980 --> 00:30:04,980
Right.

383
00:30:04,980 --> 00:30:05,980
It's true.

384
00:30:05,980 --> 00:30:09,860
And the director of our hospice edit the book.

385
00:30:09,860 --> 00:30:14,220
I wanted her to be sure that she felt good about everything.

386
00:30:14,220 --> 00:30:15,220
And she did.

387
00:30:15,220 --> 00:30:16,220
She felt good about everything.

388
00:30:16,220 --> 00:30:21,820
The only thing she had me change was one of the nurses came in a mini skirt.

389
00:30:21,820 --> 00:30:26,820
And she said she'd like to create more of a professional kind of feeling, even though

390
00:30:26,820 --> 00:30:30,660
the nurse didn't have that.

391
00:30:30,660 --> 00:30:31,660
Yeah.

392
00:30:31,660 --> 00:30:32,660
I'm curious.

393
00:30:32,660 --> 00:30:39,060
We should just say that, again, the title of the book is of Mother's Final Gift.

394
00:30:39,060 --> 00:30:47,980
And you can always find us at sharedheart.org and all of our story and our books and everything

395
00:30:47,980 --> 00:30:49,980
right there.

396
00:30:49,980 --> 00:30:54,460
You're listening to Aging Today with your host, Mark Turnbull and his guest, Joyce and

397
00:30:54,460 --> 00:30:58,380
Barry Vistel, Authors of a Mother's Final Gift.

398
00:30:58,380 --> 00:31:04,980
You can find out more about the authors and other books they've written by going to sharedheart.org.

399
00:31:04,980 --> 00:31:06,900
That's sharedheart.org.

400
00:31:06,900 --> 00:31:14,860
We'll have more of our discussion with Joyce and Barry in just a moment.

401
00:31:14,860 --> 00:31:17,900
Sometimes I'd like to smack old age right in the kisser.

402
00:31:17,900 --> 00:31:20,900
Oh, yeah, still got those moves.

403
00:31:20,900 --> 00:31:22,700
I will be fabulous.

404
00:31:22,700 --> 00:31:26,380
Comfort care can help with as much or as little home cares you need.

405
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406
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407
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408
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409
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A Did You Know Moment from Comfort Care Home Care of Westlin?

410
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Did you know story is the language of the heart?

411
00:31:51,260 --> 00:31:55,260
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412
00:31:55,260 --> 00:32:00,340
As American professor Joseph Campbell who passed away in 1987, one of the world's leaders

413
00:32:00,340 --> 00:32:06,620
in comparative mythology and comparative religion said, "Everything starts with a story."

414
00:32:06,620 --> 00:32:08,300
Stories nourish us.

415
00:32:08,300 --> 00:32:10,540
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416
00:32:10,540 --> 00:32:15,740
We learn our most important lessons through story and story deepens them.

417
00:32:15,740 --> 00:32:21,340
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418
00:32:21,340 --> 00:32:27,340
Story gives us our best answers to all of life's big questions and to the small ones as well.

419
00:32:27,340 --> 00:32:31,540
If you want to get to know someone, you need to know their story.

420
00:32:31,540 --> 00:32:36,780
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421
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422
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[music]

423
00:32:52,140 --> 00:32:57,500
And now more of our conversation with Mark Turnbull and his guest Joyce and Barry Vistel,

424
00:32:57,500 --> 00:33:04,660
author of a Mother's Final Gift, here on Aging Today.

425
00:33:04,660 --> 00:33:12,700
I want to get a little bit into how your mother's courageous dying transformed you individually.

426
00:33:12,700 --> 00:33:14,540
What was the impact on you?

427
00:33:14,540 --> 00:33:23,340
How did it change you and your perspective on our own mortality?

428
00:33:23,340 --> 00:33:31,500
Well, I mean, to see her go in such peace and to be communicating.

429
00:33:31,500 --> 00:33:38,220
So the last time that she was, I mean, her body kind of lingered on a little bit longer,

430
00:33:38,220 --> 00:33:44,580
but the last time that she was conscious, and I feel that her spirit was leaving, she would

431
00:33:44,580 --> 00:33:54,980
say things like, "I never knew it could be so beautiful, and there's nothing but love

432
00:33:54,980 --> 00:34:01,860
where I am going, and there's so much light."

433
00:34:01,860 --> 00:34:08,380
And it's these messages, and I was blessed to be there at the time.

434
00:34:08,380 --> 00:34:12,420
There's these messages I'll never forget.

435
00:34:12,420 --> 00:34:21,420
So whatever challenge I'm facing, I need to remember exactly what she was saying that

436
00:34:21,420 --> 00:34:25,260
there's so much light and there's so much love.

437
00:34:25,260 --> 00:34:34,420
Our whole family, Mark, our whole family was really changed.

438
00:34:34,420 --> 00:34:44,260
We carry this fear of death or the fear of dying, and Louise actually took a lot of that

439
00:34:44,260 --> 00:34:50,740
away from our whole family, which allowed, you're not afraid of death, they're dying, you

440
00:34:50,740 --> 00:34:55,420
can actually live more courageously.

441
00:34:55,420 --> 00:34:58,300
So that's a gift.

442
00:34:58,300 --> 00:35:06,980
Which leads me to the question, why are we as a society so fearful of death?

443
00:35:06,980 --> 00:35:14,900
I want you to take a little bit of a dive into that because I think there's a misconception

444
00:35:14,900 --> 00:35:20,460
about our lives in our culture today.

445
00:35:20,460 --> 00:35:23,740
We often talk about there's two periods.

446
00:35:23,740 --> 00:35:31,580
There's the birth and the death, and I love the way you guys write about it.

447
00:35:31,580 --> 00:35:38,140
It's not so much of a period, it's a comma, and that there's something, and it's living

448
00:35:38,140 --> 00:35:46,020
through the dying process, living through death, and living into something even greater.

449
00:35:46,020 --> 00:35:52,500
It seems like that's what your mom was trying to convey to all of us.

450
00:35:52,500 --> 00:36:03,020
I would say that if you think that this is it, that once your body dies, you're gone and

451
00:36:03,020 --> 00:36:09,660
you're ended, that would create so much fear.

452
00:36:09,660 --> 00:36:16,260
And how can you even deal with that much fear of thinking that when I die, I'm gone and

453
00:36:16,260 --> 00:36:19,180
there's nothing left, nothing goes on.

454
00:36:19,180 --> 00:36:21,180
So I think that's the big thing.

455
00:36:21,180 --> 00:36:24,900
And yes, I'm talking about faith.

456
00:36:24,900 --> 00:36:34,540
I'm talking about a trust that who we are is deeper than these bodies.

457
00:36:34,540 --> 00:36:42,300
And that, I think, once you get that, once you can even touch that, then you can open

458
00:36:42,300 --> 00:36:47,660
to living more fully.

459
00:36:47,660 --> 00:36:52,260
Explain the difference between dying and death.

460
00:36:52,260 --> 00:36:58,180
Yeah, and a lot of people are more afraid of the dying than death itself.

461
00:36:58,180 --> 00:37:01,180
Well, I think I am.

462
00:37:01,180 --> 00:37:06,580
I mean, I'm going to be transparent and honest with you is, and you write about this in your

463
00:37:06,580 --> 00:37:09,420
book, "Dying is messy."

464
00:37:09,420 --> 00:37:11,420
It can be.

465
00:37:11,420 --> 00:37:12,420
Yeah.

466
00:37:12,420 --> 00:37:18,140
Yeah, and that's this way I mentioned, my mother had all the things that none of us want

467
00:37:18,140 --> 00:37:24,380
to have happened to us, the helplessness, the pain, the incontinence.

468
00:37:24,380 --> 00:37:26,540
She had all those things.

469
00:37:26,540 --> 00:37:29,740
And yet she didn't put her attention on that.

470
00:37:29,740 --> 00:37:35,300
She put her attention on the big prize, which is where she was going.

471
00:37:35,300 --> 00:37:39,940
That was always in the forefront.

472
00:37:39,940 --> 00:37:42,580
So it really comes back to an aim.

473
00:37:42,580 --> 00:37:46,460
What is your aim in life?

474
00:37:46,460 --> 00:37:50,180
And I think there's a lot to be said there.

475
00:37:50,180 --> 00:38:00,640
If you aim high, if your aim is higher than even death itself, it will change the way you

476
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:02,060
look at this world.

477
00:38:02,060 --> 00:38:06,940
When you change the way you look at things that you look at, it will change.

478
00:38:06,940 --> 00:38:07,940
Exactly.

479
00:38:07,940 --> 00:38:08,940
Right.

480
00:38:08,940 --> 00:38:09,940
Exactly.

481
00:38:09,940 --> 00:38:10,940
Yeah.

482
00:38:10,940 --> 00:38:11,940
Yeah.

483
00:38:11,940 --> 00:38:20,140
Yeah, there is just a peacefulness in the midst of the chaos, in the midst of the messiness

484
00:38:20,140 --> 00:38:21,140
of her dying.

485
00:38:21,140 --> 00:38:27,340
There was such a piece that it was contagious.

486
00:38:27,340 --> 00:38:34,620
And we would, I can remember so vividly walking into the her little apartment.

487
00:38:34,620 --> 00:38:43,020
And even though she was going through all the human stuff and the physical stuff, I would

488
00:38:43,020 --> 00:38:46,700
feel uplifted that there was an energy.

489
00:38:46,700 --> 00:38:50,820
There was a spirituality that was palpable.

490
00:38:50,820 --> 00:38:54,300
You could feel it just by walking in the room.

491
00:38:54,300 --> 00:38:56,940
And I was always amazed by that.

492
00:38:56,940 --> 00:39:03,180
That's really the true experience that's happening.

493
00:39:03,180 --> 00:39:04,180
Yeah.

494
00:39:04,180 --> 00:39:11,860
Even in the title of your book, "A Mother's Final Gift," what was the gift that she gave

495
00:39:11,860 --> 00:39:14,380
you?

496
00:39:14,380 --> 00:39:18,020
Are you able to, like, is there one gift?

497
00:39:18,020 --> 00:39:19,700
Is there many gifts?

498
00:39:19,700 --> 00:39:21,660
Is it general?

499
00:39:21,660 --> 00:39:26,700
Is it specific for each of you and for your family members?

500
00:39:26,700 --> 00:39:30,300
Because I get the whole gift thing.

501
00:39:30,300 --> 00:39:41,180
But what was it for you as individuals, the gift that you received about her life?

502
00:39:41,180 --> 00:39:53,300
For me, it was just a reinforcement that death is actually part of life and part of a journey

503
00:39:53,300 --> 00:39:55,300
that we're on.

504
00:39:55,300 --> 00:40:01,860
And it's the feeling of being on a journey that goes beyond one life.

505
00:40:01,860 --> 00:40:08,140
That for me is probably the biggest gift of all that she gave.

506
00:40:08,140 --> 00:40:16,020
You know, one of the things, Barry, that I picked up from the book, at least, and this is just

507
00:40:16,020 --> 00:40:21,940
my interpretation of reading from the pages of what you guys wrote, is that the gift that

508
00:40:21,940 --> 00:40:26,540
she gave you was that she gained a son.

509
00:40:26,540 --> 00:40:33,420
Well, that was, I wouldn't say that was the biggest gift, but that was wonderful because,

510
00:40:33,420 --> 00:40:36,860
you know, I was helping her.

511
00:40:36,860 --> 00:40:40,300
I would help her get to the bathroom.

512
00:40:40,300 --> 00:40:47,740
I would help her pull down her pants and sit on the toilet and I would even, I would wipe

513
00:40:47,740 --> 00:40:48,740
her.

514
00:40:48,740 --> 00:40:51,580
And these are like really earthy things.

515
00:40:51,580 --> 00:40:54,740
She would look at me and she looked at me at one point.

516
00:40:54,740 --> 00:41:05,900
She said that even her own blood son, you know, it wasn't as much of a son as I was in

517
00:41:05,900 --> 00:41:07,900
that moment.

518
00:41:07,900 --> 00:41:13,940
And yeah, that's when she said, you're really my son.

519
00:41:13,940 --> 00:41:17,220
And that really touched me deeply.

520
00:41:17,220 --> 00:41:22,140
You know, a lot of people don't want to be a burden on their children.

521
00:41:22,140 --> 00:41:25,900
I think that's a big fear.

522
00:41:25,900 --> 00:41:27,820
And we took care of my mother.

523
00:41:27,820 --> 00:41:31,300
It was, not them, you know, it was hard.

524
00:41:31,300 --> 00:41:33,860
Sometimes it was really hard.

525
00:41:33,860 --> 00:41:39,940
But what we received is so huge.

526
00:41:39,940 --> 00:41:45,420
And I will always be grateful for my whole life that we got to do that.

527
00:41:45,420 --> 00:41:51,460
We got to have that experience of taking care of, taking care of her and that our children

528
00:41:51,460 --> 00:41:54,940
got to have that experience also.

529
00:41:54,940 --> 00:41:55,940
Yeah.

530
00:41:55,940 --> 00:42:00,500
You know, there was a passage in your book and you write this.

531
00:42:00,500 --> 00:42:06,820
You say, "Death is a part of living, not the end of living."

532
00:42:06,820 --> 00:42:09,580
And that just jumped off the page to me.

533
00:42:09,580 --> 00:42:13,500
It just, it made sense.

534
00:42:13,500 --> 00:42:17,420
And you know, it goes back to, you know, we were having that conversation about the difference

535
00:42:17,420 --> 00:42:20,180
between dying and death.

536
00:42:20,180 --> 00:42:29,520
And as a hospice owner, myself, as an in-home care owner of an agency, you know, I really

537
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:34,960
want to emphasize that hospice isn't about death.

538
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,000
It's about living.

539
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:41,280
And it's about living through the dying process.

540
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:46,120
And through death to the other side, to wherever that means to you.

541
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:48,360
Because none of us know exactly.

542
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:50,960
None of us are in control of that.

543
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:57,240
But by faith, we have to just let go and embrace what's there.

544
00:42:57,240 --> 00:42:58,240
Right.

545
00:42:58,240 --> 00:42:59,240
Right.

546
00:42:59,240 --> 00:43:06,720
It was Joyce's mother's faith, such a deep faith that she was going to have, that this,

547
00:43:06,720 --> 00:43:11,960
that her dying was her biggest adventure of her life.

548
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:12,960
Yeah.

549
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:15,920
It's interesting that she called it adventure.

550
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:16,920
Adventure.

551
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:17,920
Yeah, adventure.

552
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:18,920
Yeah.

553
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:21,080
Why would she choose that word adventure?

554
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:22,560
Because it's one of my favorite words.

555
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:26,920
And I get it because not many people use that word.

556
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:30,240
I use it in everyday living here.

557
00:43:30,240 --> 00:43:37,440
But when she used it in the context of dying, I was going, wow.

558
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:42,680
That's another level that I hadn't considered.

559
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:43,680
And why not?

560
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:44,680
Yeah, why not?

561
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:48,840
Why not have it be an amazing adventure?

562
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:50,840
Why not?

563
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:52,680
Why not?

564
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:53,680
Yeah.

565
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:54,680
And she did.

566
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:58,120
Amazing adventure to you.

567
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:02,500
And it was, it was a gift to you guys and your family.

568
00:44:02,500 --> 00:44:03,500
Right.

569
00:44:03,500 --> 00:44:04,500
Yeah.

570
00:44:04,500 --> 00:44:05,500
Absolutely.

571
00:44:05,500 --> 00:44:06,500
Yeah.

572
00:44:06,500 --> 00:44:07,500
But yeah.

573
00:44:07,500 --> 00:44:08,500
Yeah.

574
00:44:08,500 --> 00:44:12,600
You know, another gift that my mother, that my mother gave me, my, my father, they had been

575
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:16,480
together, they had sixty years of, of marriage.

576
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:23,540
And my father died eight years before my mother and my parents were, were so close, you know,

577
00:44:23,540 --> 00:44:25,000
so connected.

578
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:30,420
And I wondered how, what would life be like for my mother without my dad?

579
00:44:30,420 --> 00:44:37,180
And she maintained all those eight years that he never left her side.

580
00:44:37,180 --> 00:44:40,380
And sometimes I go, go check on my mother.

581
00:44:40,380 --> 00:44:46,220
And she'd be just sitting on the couch, not doing anything, just sitting there.

582
00:44:46,220 --> 00:44:51,500
And my immediate feeling would be guilt like I should be with her.

583
00:44:51,500 --> 00:44:53,500
I should be social, you know, taking care of her.

584
00:44:53,500 --> 00:44:54,500
Doing something.

585
00:44:54,500 --> 00:44:56,220
And I'd say, how are you doing?

586
00:44:56,220 --> 00:45:00,100
And she'd say, I'm great.

587
00:45:00,100 --> 00:45:07,740
I'm sitting here with dad having this wonderful time.

588
00:45:07,740 --> 00:45:09,580
And that's, that's how she lived her life.

589
00:45:09,580 --> 00:45:13,900
She never felt that my dad left her side.

590
00:45:13,900 --> 00:45:20,980
And when she was dying, in fact, he never did leave her side.

591
00:45:20,980 --> 00:45:25,300
There was, well, can I just tell a quick story?

592
00:45:25,300 --> 00:45:26,300
Absolutely.

593
00:45:26,300 --> 00:45:31,220
So, so my mother, as Barry mentioned, we did have difficulties with, like, she wasn't

594
00:45:31,220 --> 00:45:32,460
a saint.

595
00:45:32,460 --> 00:45:39,260
And she, I had, I went through great pains to, to, so that she could keep her driver's license

596
00:45:39,260 --> 00:45:40,860
as long as possible.

597
00:45:40,860 --> 00:45:41,860
And she did.

598
00:45:41,860 --> 00:45:46,500
She drove until she was eighty nine, on little streets, not on the big streets.

599
00:45:46,500 --> 00:45:49,100
And then she wasn't safe anymore.

600
00:45:49,100 --> 00:45:53,100
And we needed to take her, her driver's license away.

601
00:45:53,100 --> 00:45:56,260
And she could not forgive me.

602
00:45:56,260 --> 00:46:00,780
And she talked about it every visitor that came.

603
00:46:00,780 --> 00:46:05,820
She talked about how mean I was to take away her driver's license.

604
00:46:05,820 --> 00:46:08,740
And I had my brother talk to her.

605
00:46:08,740 --> 00:46:09,740
That didn't do any good.

606
00:46:09,740 --> 00:46:12,020
I had the minister of her church talk to her.

607
00:46:12,020 --> 00:46:13,020
That didn't do any good.

608
00:46:13,020 --> 00:46:14,020
Barry talked to her.

609
00:46:14,020 --> 00:46:15,420
That didn't do any good.

610
00:46:15,420 --> 00:46:23,380
She just maintained that that was so unfair that I had, that I had done that to her.

611
00:46:23,380 --> 00:46:26,860
And so I was visiting with my mom.

612
00:46:26,860 --> 00:46:30,140
This was maybe six weeks before she died.

613
00:46:30,140 --> 00:46:36,980
And I, and she, I said, you know, mommy, you need, you need to forgive me for taking away

614
00:46:36,980 --> 00:46:38,860
your driver's license.

615
00:46:38,860 --> 00:46:43,020
And she, she again, she said, you know, you shouldn't have done that.

616
00:46:43,020 --> 00:46:46,260
And then she closed her eyes for a long, long time.

617
00:46:46,260 --> 00:46:49,620
I thought that, I thought that maybe she'd fallen asleep or something.

618
00:46:49,620 --> 00:46:54,100
And she opened her eyes and she said, I just had a talk with Dad.

619
00:46:54,100 --> 00:46:57,580
And he told me why you did that.

620
00:46:57,580 --> 00:46:59,980
And I'm really, I apologize.

621
00:46:59,980 --> 00:47:01,420
You did the right thing.

622
00:47:01,420 --> 00:47:04,420
Isn't that, isn't that something?

623
00:47:04,420 --> 00:47:09,220
He had really, he had seen the, he had seen the whole thing.

624
00:47:09,220 --> 00:47:10,220
Right.

625
00:47:10,220 --> 00:47:14,540
You know, again, you can chalk that up.

626
00:47:14,540 --> 00:47:18,540
Okay, that's another hallucination, but no, no.

627
00:47:18,540 --> 00:47:20,300
I was, I was grateful.

628
00:47:20,300 --> 00:47:24,140
I mean, finally, that was, I was off the hook with that one.

629
00:47:24,140 --> 00:47:25,140
I skipped that.

630
00:47:25,140 --> 00:47:26,140
King or death.

631
00:47:26,140 --> 00:47:27,140
Yeah, yeah.

632
00:47:27,140 --> 00:47:29,060
Thanks for getting through the mom.

633
00:47:29,060 --> 00:47:32,540
And that is a very touchy subject with a lot of seniors.

634
00:47:32,540 --> 00:47:33,540
Exactly.

635
00:47:33,540 --> 00:47:36,100
Because that does symbolize your independence.

636
00:47:36,100 --> 00:47:37,100
Exactly.

637
00:47:37,100 --> 00:47:38,100
Right.

638
00:47:38,100 --> 00:47:42,420
That have taken away from you is devastating to many.

639
00:47:42,420 --> 00:47:43,420
Right.

640
00:47:43,420 --> 00:47:47,180
And none of, none I had her talk with the three.

641
00:47:47,180 --> 00:47:53,020
Well, my brother and the minister and Barry were the three most important men in her life.

642
00:47:53,020 --> 00:47:54,420
They couldn't get through.

643
00:47:54,420 --> 00:48:00,380
But my dad, but my dad on the other side, he got, he got through to her.

644
00:48:00,380 --> 00:48:01,380
Yeah.

645
00:48:01,380 --> 00:48:03,620
Oh, thank goodness for that, huh?

646
00:48:03,620 --> 00:48:04,620
Yeah.

647
00:48:04,620 --> 00:48:05,620
Yeah.

648
00:48:05,620 --> 00:48:12,540
So earlier you, you referred to this wonderful group of people called hospice.

649
00:48:12,540 --> 00:48:19,320
And I want you to take a little bit of a deeper dive into your experience with hospice and,

650
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:25,780
and what hospice meant to you because we resisted and you resisted it.

651
00:48:25,780 --> 00:48:28,940
I want you to tell that story.

652
00:48:28,940 --> 00:48:35,380
Well, yes, I resisted a lot and are, are neighbor and you're a nurse.

653
00:48:35,380 --> 00:48:39,100
And, and very, some medical doctor.

654
00:48:39,100 --> 00:48:40,100
Yeah.

655
00:48:40,100 --> 00:48:41,100
Right.

656
00:48:41,100 --> 00:48:46,500
And the people that I have the most trouble with, you know, in resisting hospice are the medical

657
00:48:46,500 --> 00:48:47,500
professionals.

658
00:48:47,500 --> 00:48:48,500
Yeah.

659
00:48:48,500 --> 00:48:49,500
Okay.

660
00:48:49,500 --> 00:48:50,500
Yeah.

661
00:48:50,500 --> 00:48:51,500
Okay.

662
00:48:51,500 --> 00:48:52,500
Yeah.

663
00:48:52,500 --> 00:48:57,820
So I did because I felt like if I called hospice, that would give my mother the feeling that

664
00:48:57,820 --> 00:49:01,220
I thought she was going to die very soon.

665
00:49:01,220 --> 00:49:05,980
And I didn't want to give her that feeling.

666
00:49:05,980 --> 00:49:08,060
Actually, she was still able to go to church.

667
00:49:08,060 --> 00:49:10,900
We took her, which was very important.

668
00:49:10,900 --> 00:49:15,460
We would take her to church and sit with her and, and, and bring her home.

669
00:49:15,460 --> 00:49:19,260
That was her big, big outing of the week.

670
00:49:19,260 --> 00:49:24,780
And our neighbor was a former hospice nurse and she would, she would, she would see us

671
00:49:24,780 --> 00:49:29,740
out on the road and she would stop and say, you really should call hospice.

672
00:49:29,740 --> 00:49:31,380
They can help you.

673
00:49:31,380 --> 00:49:36,020
And it took three times and finally, is that, well, all right.

674
00:49:36,020 --> 00:49:42,460
And, and I, I called it nine o'clock at night because I figured, well, I'll just leave a message.

675
00:49:42,460 --> 00:49:45,620
And if they call back, I won't have to answer it.

676
00:49:45,620 --> 00:49:55,660
But I got someone and, and there, I was just met with so much compassion and so much love.

677
00:49:55,660 --> 00:49:59,140
And they sent, they sent a nurse out the next day to talk to my mother.

678
00:49:59,140 --> 00:50:01,140
And this was a few months before.

679
00:50:01,140 --> 00:50:05,700
Yeah, it was probably maybe four months before she died and she was still, she was still doing

680
00:50:05,700 --> 00:50:08,500
well, well enough.

681
00:50:08,500 --> 00:50:15,100
And, and the nurse was able to present hospice in a way to my mother that allowed her to

682
00:50:15,100 --> 00:50:24,780
see that, that, that she wasn't dying right away, but that this would be a source of tremendous

683
00:50:24,780 --> 00:50:26,700
support for me.

684
00:50:26,700 --> 00:50:31,380
That's, that's how she saw it and she opened up to it completely.

685
00:50:31,380 --> 00:50:36,620
And hospice was just absolutely amazing.

686
00:50:36,620 --> 00:50:41,540
I couldn't have asked for a more wonderful support.

687
00:50:41,540 --> 00:50:48,740
The nurses who were on call 24 hours a day for, for any, for any questions that I had or,

688
00:50:48,740 --> 00:50:54,220
let me think one time my mother, the cat scratched my mother and she was just really bleeding

689
00:50:54,220 --> 00:50:55,380
a lot.

690
00:50:55,380 --> 00:51:01,460
And I called them and they came right over and they, they, they took care of that.

691
00:51:01,460 --> 00:51:03,620
Can they say?

692
00:51:03,620 --> 00:51:05,820
Yeah.

693
00:51:05,820 --> 00:51:12,260
You know the analogy it takes a community or takes a village to raise a child.

694
00:51:12,260 --> 00:51:21,420
It also takes a village to help a person die and to be of support and hospice is the village.

695
00:51:21,420 --> 00:51:28,260
And so it took, it took the weight, a lot of the weight off of our family.

696
00:51:28,260 --> 00:51:29,260
Yeah.

697
00:51:29,260 --> 00:51:32,220
You know, so we didn't have to carry it alone.

698
00:51:32,220 --> 00:51:38,580
It was such an important resource to us, to have that help, to have the village help.

699
00:51:38,580 --> 00:51:39,580
Yeah.

700
00:51:39,580 --> 00:51:45,460
And, you know, the way I look at it too is that dying is a process and it's, it's a, it's

701
00:51:45,460 --> 00:51:50,580
it can be a long process, right?

702
00:51:50,580 --> 00:51:52,380
We die.

703
00:51:52,380 --> 00:51:58,260
And, and as it becomes more acute, you know, then you surround yourself with these people

704
00:51:58,260 --> 00:52:00,380
that are, they're truly angels.

705
00:52:00,380 --> 00:52:02,820
That's how you described them in the book.

706
00:52:02,820 --> 00:52:04,260
And they really are.

707
00:52:04,260 --> 00:52:08,540
And they're, I love the term that you used.

708
00:52:08,540 --> 00:52:13,460
You said they are a communication system.

709
00:52:13,460 --> 00:52:18,060
And I thought, wow, that's a great way to describe hospice.

710
00:52:18,060 --> 00:52:25,860
There are communication system between all the devarious pieces that they bring to the,

711
00:52:25,860 --> 00:52:31,860
to your mom and to you and the extended family.

712
00:52:31,860 --> 00:52:32,860
Yeah.

713
00:52:32,860 --> 00:52:37,260
It was this one nurse towards the end.

714
00:52:37,260 --> 00:52:39,260
Remember that last night?

715
00:52:39,260 --> 00:52:40,260
Yeah.

716
00:52:40,260 --> 00:52:48,260
And we were sitting, it was late at night and, and Joseph Mom was by then on responsive,

717
00:52:48,260 --> 00:52:50,140
but still breathing.

718
00:52:50,140 --> 00:52:55,460
And this nurse, she just kept pointing out beauty.

719
00:52:55,460 --> 00:52:58,940
She said, look, look at your mother's face.

720
00:52:58,940 --> 00:53:01,220
Look at how beautiful she looks right now.

721
00:53:01,220 --> 00:53:03,580
I mean, who does that, right?

722
00:53:03,580 --> 00:53:04,580
Yeah.

723
00:53:04,580 --> 00:53:08,780
You know, when the person is dying, she was pointing out beauty.

724
00:53:08,780 --> 00:53:17,900
And we were, we were, we were energetically just spent because, well, I, you know, her, I feel

725
00:53:17,900 --> 00:53:25,380
her spirit had left, but her body was somehow still, still still breathing.

726
00:53:25,380 --> 00:53:26,660
But she couldn't hear us.

727
00:53:26,660 --> 00:53:29,620
She couldn't, we tried moving her.

728
00:53:29,620 --> 00:53:33,700
There was no, no, no response whatsoever.

729
00:53:33,700 --> 00:53:41,540
But we felt we needed to be there until the end and we were beyond exhausted.

730
00:53:41,540 --> 00:53:50,100
And this beautiful nurse came and spent probably three hours with us until midnight.

731
00:53:50,100 --> 00:53:52,100
And she said, you need to go to bed.

732
00:53:52,100 --> 00:53:57,180
We didn't really, but we, but we keep, but how can we do that?

733
00:53:57,180 --> 00:54:02,540
You know, she's still, she still has this breathing.

734
00:54:02,540 --> 00:54:07,820
And she said, why don't you bring the cat in?

735
00:54:07,820 --> 00:54:11,540
And my mother had this cat that was very, very devoted.

736
00:54:11,540 --> 00:54:12,540
We brought the cat in.

737
00:54:12,540 --> 00:54:18,420
The cat went right up on my mother's chest and purred.

738
00:54:18,420 --> 00:54:24,740
I think throughout the whole night and just was there in, like, in a, in a protection.

739
00:54:24,740 --> 00:54:32,500
And then the next day we were more alert and we, I said, with my mother and other several

740
00:54:32,500 --> 00:54:36,820
hours and she did have that final, that final breath.

741
00:54:36,820 --> 00:54:37,820
Yeah.

742
00:54:37,820 --> 00:54:41,820
You know, that's, that's what they call path therapies.

743
00:54:41,820 --> 00:54:53,500
And I'm always amazed at how animals can feel and sense our pain and become a therapy

744
00:54:53,500 --> 00:54:56,420
to each of us and can bring peace.

745
00:54:56,420 --> 00:54:58,420
They can bring comfort.

746
00:54:58,420 --> 00:55:01,660
I'm, I'm just blown away by that.

747
00:55:01,660 --> 00:55:09,660
So, so the hospice took, took away the guilt that we were feeling and just gave us, I mean,

748
00:55:09,660 --> 00:55:12,900
just so, so, so much support.

749
00:55:12,900 --> 00:55:13,900
Yeah.

750
00:55:13,900 --> 00:55:21,380
And, and after she, after she died and she had that final breath, the hospice nurse with

751
00:55:21,380 --> 00:55:23,660
the little mini skirt came.

752
00:55:23,660 --> 00:55:27,980
And she, she was just so chipper and so sweet.

753
00:55:27,980 --> 00:55:33,900
And, and she pointed out the wrinkles in my mother's face and she said, you see, this is, she

754
00:55:33,900 --> 00:55:37,980
lived her life with the, with purpose and with love.

755
00:55:37,980 --> 00:55:43,980
And she just looked over at my mother's whole body and pointed out these, this beauty.

756
00:55:43,980 --> 00:55:49,420
And she helped, she helped me to dress my mother in her favorite little pink suit that

757
00:55:49,420 --> 00:55:51,700
she wore on special occasions.

758
00:55:51,700 --> 00:55:56,820
And, you know, she was being cremated.

759
00:55:56,820 --> 00:55:59,900
She wanted my mother to look her, her best.

760
00:55:59,900 --> 00:56:00,900
Sure.

761
00:56:00,900 --> 00:56:01,900
Yeah.

762
00:56:01,900 --> 00:56:04,300
And that, that's special people of hospice.

763
00:56:04,300 --> 00:56:05,300
Yeah.

764
00:56:05,300 --> 00:56:06,300
Yeah.

765
00:56:06,300 --> 00:56:08,060
And, and I want to conclude with this.

766
00:56:08,060 --> 00:56:14,900
And, and I think that a lot of people, you know, just want to have this conversation amongst

767
00:56:14,900 --> 00:56:20,540
the family members and it's so difficult is, is there any advice that you could give

768
00:56:20,540 --> 00:56:30,700
us on how to have these conversations about dying, about the process of dying, about death,

769
00:56:30,700 --> 00:56:37,540
about the afterlife, hospice, you know, putting the whole thing together.

770
00:56:37,540 --> 00:56:43,700
What would you recommend that families do as they sit down around the table to have these

771
00:56:43,700 --> 00:56:44,700
conversations?

772
00:56:44,700 --> 00:56:48,820
How would you instruct us to approach it?

773
00:56:48,820 --> 00:56:50,500
What have you learned?

774
00:56:50,500 --> 00:56:56,500
Well, you know, one, one thing that helped is my, so I just have one brother who lives in

775
00:56:56,500 --> 00:57:02,380
Minnesota and she, she probably ten years before she passed on.

776
00:57:02,380 --> 00:57:08,300
She wrote each of us a letter telling us how she wants it to be.

777
00:57:08,300 --> 00:57:11,460
And that, that helped a lot.

778
00:57:11,460 --> 00:57:17,780
And then, you know, my brother and I'm, I'm very, I'm very grateful to my brother.

779
00:57:17,780 --> 00:57:23,420
He, he let us take care of her.

780
00:57:23,420 --> 00:57:25,700
He did not interfere.

781
00:57:25,700 --> 00:57:28,220
He trusted us to take care of her.

782
00:57:28,220 --> 00:57:34,460
He supported through his, through his words, but he didn't try and change things.

783
00:57:34,460 --> 00:57:39,100
And that was, that was just a, just a tremendous gift.

784
00:57:39,100 --> 00:57:46,100
And I think we've, we've heard in our counseling of, of siblings who are fighting over things

785
00:57:46,100 --> 00:57:50,700
and their parents in the other room actually taking their last breath and the siblings are

786
00:57:50,700 --> 00:57:53,660
fighting over, over how it should be.

787
00:57:53,660 --> 00:57:54,660
Yeah.

788
00:57:54,660 --> 00:57:59,540
And my mother didn't, she didn't want that at all and my brother got that.

789
00:57:59,540 --> 00:58:05,980
And he, I, I guess my, my brother's an engineer and I guess he felt because we're in the medical

790
00:58:05,980 --> 00:58:10,380
profession, we would, we would do a better job and it's true.

791
00:58:10,380 --> 00:58:13,060
We would do a better job than he would have done.

792
00:58:13,060 --> 00:58:18,900
And he just let us be and his presence was one just of love.

793
00:58:18,900 --> 00:58:19,900
Yeah.

794
00:58:19,900 --> 00:58:25,140
That takes a tremendous amount of humility on his part and to be able to do that, you know.

795
00:58:25,140 --> 00:58:26,140
Yeah.

796
00:58:26,140 --> 00:58:28,140
But, but you, you're right.

797
00:58:28,140 --> 00:58:30,820
Communication is always the key.

798
00:58:30,820 --> 00:58:37,580
And you know, siblings whose parent is dying, we need to talk with each other.

799
00:58:37,580 --> 00:58:40,780
And it's never, it may not be easy.

800
00:58:40,780 --> 00:58:47,660
You know, the first person said something has to get over that, that hurdle of, oh, how can

801
00:58:47,660 --> 00:58:49,620
I, how can I bring this up, right?

802
00:58:49,620 --> 00:58:50,620
Yeah.

803
00:58:50,620 --> 00:58:52,580
But, we need to talk about it.

804
00:58:52,580 --> 00:58:58,420
We're, we're all, like you said, we're all dying, you know, maybe in a long time from now

805
00:58:58,420 --> 00:59:04,260
or maybe tomorrow, but we're all dying and we need to talk about it.

806
00:59:04,260 --> 00:59:05,260
Yeah.

807
00:59:05,260 --> 00:59:07,260
We need to just talk about it.

808
00:59:07,260 --> 00:59:08,260
Yeah.

809
00:59:08,260 --> 00:59:09,980
And work with couples.

810
00:59:09,980 --> 00:59:14,340
Couples need to talk about their relationship and where they're added.

811
00:59:14,340 --> 00:59:15,340
Yeah.

812
00:59:15,340 --> 00:59:19,660
And even, we even have couples talk about their dying.

813
00:59:19,660 --> 00:59:21,180
It's all important.

814
00:59:21,180 --> 00:59:22,180
Yeah.

815
00:59:22,180 --> 00:59:30,100
You give a couple of examples of families that, how they get into conflict and, and in your

816
00:59:30,100 --> 00:59:31,100
book.

817
00:59:31,100 --> 00:59:35,020
And that, the conflicts, you know, tend to destroy us.

818
00:59:35,020 --> 00:59:37,020
They tend to destroy.

819
00:59:37,020 --> 00:59:43,380
The perfect scenario that is unfolding before our eyes where we could embrace something

820
00:59:43,380 --> 00:59:50,660
that is so unique and loving and tenderly and yet we as humans, our ego is getting the

821
00:59:50,660 --> 00:59:54,140
way.

822
00:59:54,140 --> 00:59:59,940
And again, it comes down to the fear of dying and death.

823
00:59:59,940 --> 01:00:00,940
Yeah.

824
01:00:00,940 --> 01:00:06,940
And that, when we're not talking about that fear, when we don't, when we keep it hidden,

825
01:00:06,940 --> 01:00:18,940
then what comes out is sometimes all these other stuff like jealousy and criticism.

826
01:00:18,940 --> 01:00:19,940
Yeah.

827
01:00:19,940 --> 01:00:20,940
Money.

828
01:00:20,940 --> 01:00:21,940
Money, right?

829
01:00:21,940 --> 01:00:22,940
Oh, my goodness.

830
01:00:22,940 --> 01:00:23,940
Yeah.

831
01:00:23,940 --> 01:00:24,940
I know.

832
01:00:24,940 --> 01:00:25,940
Yeah.

833
01:00:25,940 --> 01:00:27,940
And there's, there's a lot of, a lot of guilt.

834
01:00:27,940 --> 01:00:30,940
Sometimes siblings, they live far away.

835
01:00:30,940 --> 01:00:31,940
Yeah.

836
01:00:31,940 --> 01:00:36,540
And there's one sibling that's just really taking care of the parent and, and they'll fly

837
01:00:36,540 --> 01:00:44,100
in a couple of days before the parent dies and insist that it be a certain way.

838
01:00:44,100 --> 01:00:48,020
All that needs to be handled way before.

839
01:00:48,020 --> 01:00:49,020
Right.

840
01:00:49,020 --> 01:00:50,020
Yeah.

841
01:00:50,020 --> 01:00:58,260
It's again, again, I mean, really how, how I would like to end is just to really emphasize

842
01:00:58,260 --> 01:01:01,860
death is an adventure.

843
01:01:01,860 --> 01:01:09,220
If we could just get that, it opens up the door to communication, it opens up the door

844
01:01:09,220 --> 01:01:11,700
to all kinds of things.

845
01:01:11,700 --> 01:01:12,940
It's an adventure.

846
01:01:12,940 --> 01:01:13,940
Yes.

847
01:01:13,940 --> 01:01:21,100
And it's, it's, it's your mom's adventure, but she's sharing that adventure with you and

848
01:01:21,100 --> 01:01:24,460
the choice and the rest of your family.

849
01:01:24,460 --> 01:01:27,700
And that's true with all of us, with all of our families.

850
01:01:27,700 --> 01:01:34,300
We're sharing in that and it's so imperative that we communicate with one another and that

851
01:01:34,300 --> 01:01:36,940
we live that adventure together.

852
01:01:36,940 --> 01:01:37,940
Yeah.

853
01:01:37,940 --> 01:01:38,940
Yeah.

854
01:01:38,940 --> 01:01:39,940
Yes.

855
01:01:39,940 --> 01:01:40,940
Yes.

856
01:01:40,940 --> 01:01:48,380
We, we record a 10 to 15 minute video inspirational video every week.

857
01:01:48,380 --> 01:01:50,380
That's free to anybody who wants it.

858
01:01:50,380 --> 01:01:57,660
You know, if anybody needs a little encouragement in their life or inspiration, you know, we will,

859
01:01:57,660 --> 01:02:03,420
we will let you, you know, we'll put you on the list to receive this short video each week.

860
01:02:03,420 --> 01:02:04,420
Yeah.

861
01:02:04,420 --> 01:02:06,020
And where would where would they go to find that?

862
01:02:06,020 --> 01:02:11,660
How would they share shared heart dot org share shared heart dot or.

863
01:02:11,660 --> 01:02:16,620
Or isn't it just on the YouTube's to go to or well, it's easier to go through the website,

864
01:02:16,620 --> 01:02:19,620
but yes, on YouTube.

865
01:02:19,620 --> 01:02:21,300
That's a little harder to find.

866
01:02:21,300 --> 01:02:22,300
Yeah.

867
01:02:22,300 --> 01:02:23,300
Yeah.

868
01:02:23,300 --> 01:02:24,300
Okay.

869
01:02:24,300 --> 01:02:29,700
And your foundation is shared heart, the shared heart foundation and you're putting on

870
01:02:29,700 --> 01:02:36,340
many couples retreats and you're still actively, you know, in the, in the, in the changing

871
01:02:36,340 --> 01:02:42,060
lives business, you're in the business of changing lives and you're, you're remarkable people.

872
01:02:42,060 --> 01:02:49,380
I am so blessed to have allowed our paths to cross.

873
01:02:49,380 --> 01:02:51,300
You, um, you're a gift to me.

874
01:02:51,300 --> 01:02:56,420
You're a gift to all the people that are listening on this, on this podcast and, um, and all the

875
01:02:56,420 --> 01:02:59,260
readers of your books, your works.

876
01:02:59,260 --> 01:03:03,780
Um, you, you to live life skillfully, you've lived life skillfully.

877
01:03:03,780 --> 01:03:08,620
It doesn't mean you've lived it perfectly because you make that perfectly clear in all

878
01:03:08,620 --> 01:03:14,620
of your writings, but it, but you've, you've, you've worked through all those issues and,

879
01:03:14,620 --> 01:03:17,460
and what an inspiration for all of us.

880
01:03:17,460 --> 01:03:18,460
Thank you.

881
01:03:18,460 --> 01:03:22,340
Mark, you also are in the business of changing lives.

882
01:03:22,340 --> 01:03:23,340
Yeah.

883
01:03:23,340 --> 01:03:24,340
Beautifully.

884
01:03:24,340 --> 01:03:25,340
Yeah.

885
01:03:25,340 --> 01:03:29,980
Well, we're going to do it together and we're going to do it one life at a time.

886
01:03:29,980 --> 01:03:30,980
And, yes.

887
01:03:30,980 --> 01:03:35,500
And if we can just make a difference in one person's life today, I'm satisfied with that.

888
01:03:35,500 --> 01:03:40,820
It doesn't have to be, you know, tens of thousands, but, you know, just one person, just

889
01:03:40,820 --> 01:03:42,820
one at a time.

890
01:03:42,820 --> 01:03:48,380
That's the, the, uh, motto of the shared heart foundation changing the world, one heart

891
01:03:48,380 --> 01:03:49,380
at a time.

892
01:03:49,380 --> 01:03:50,940
Oh, beautiful.

893
01:03:50,940 --> 01:03:52,700
And what a great place to end.

894
01:03:52,700 --> 01:03:57,260
Joyce and Barry, thank you so much for being on aging today.

895
01:03:57,260 --> 01:03:59,780
We're delighted to have you here.

896
01:03:59,780 --> 01:04:03,380
And is there any other books in the works?

897
01:04:03,380 --> 01:04:09,820
Uh, no, we just, we just published our, this last one, a couple of miracles.

898
01:04:09,820 --> 01:04:10,820
Yeah, we're resting.

899
01:04:10,820 --> 01:04:11,820
Yeah, you're resting.

900
01:04:11,820 --> 01:04:12,820
Okay.

901
01:04:12,820 --> 01:04:17,620
Well, that, well, you're actually not resting because you're putting on the couples retreats

902
01:04:17,620 --> 01:04:19,620
and, yeah, yeah.

903
01:04:19,620 --> 01:04:23,180
Yeah, you're, you're applying everything that you've written about in.

904
01:04:23,180 --> 01:04:25,140
So we're so grateful for that.

905
01:04:25,140 --> 01:04:30,140
And, uh, and then if you are listening out there and you want to be a part of their couples

906
01:04:30,140 --> 01:04:37,820
retreats, um, all you need to do is go to sharedheart.org and you can, um, write to them

907
01:04:37,820 --> 01:04:42,500
and learn how you can attend, um, their retreats.

908
01:04:42,500 --> 01:04:44,540
Is that, uh, the right way of saying it?

909
01:04:44,540 --> 01:04:45,540
That's perfect.

910
01:04:45,540 --> 01:04:46,540
All right.

911
01:04:46,540 --> 01:04:49,060
Thank you so much for being on aging today.

912
01:04:49,060 --> 01:04:54,860
This is Mark Turnbull, your host and I want to thank all of you for tuning in to aging today.

913
01:04:54,860 --> 01:05:00,420
And we are the podcasts where together we're exploring the many options to aging on your

914
01:05:00,420 --> 01:05:01,420
terms.

915
01:05:01,420 --> 01:05:07,220
Join us every Monday when we release a new conversation on aging today to your favorite

916
01:05:07,220 --> 01:05:09,020
podcast channel.

917
01:05:09,020 --> 01:05:12,300
And remember, we're all in the process of aging.

918
01:05:12,300 --> 01:05:15,740
And as we age, we really are better together.

919
01:05:15,740 --> 01:05:17,740
So stay young at heart.

920
01:05:17,740 --> 01:05:21,340
You make me feel so young.

921
01:05:21,340 --> 01:05:24,580
You make me feel like spring is from.

922
01:05:24,580 --> 01:05:33,820
And every time I see your face, I'm such a happy individual, the moment that you speak.

923
01:05:33,820 --> 01:05:36,940
I want to go play hide and see.

924
01:05:36,940 --> 01:05:42,380
I want to go and bounce the moon just like a toy balloon.

925
01:05:42,380 --> 01:05:45,420
Well, you and I.

926
01:05:45,420 --> 01:05:48,460
I'll just like a bullet.

927
01:05:48,460 --> 01:05:51,500
Running across the metal.

928
01:05:51,500 --> 01:05:54,500
Big enough, lots of forget me.

929
01:05:54,500 --> 01:05:58,900
Not so you made me feel so young.

930
01:05:58,900 --> 01:06:01,260
You made me feel there are songs to be sung.

931
01:06:01,260 --> 01:06:05,860
There will still be run and wonderful things to be fun.

932
01:06:05,860 --> 01:06:08,820
And when I'm old and grey.

933
01:06:08,820 --> 01:06:14,500
You've been listening to aging today where together we explore the options to aging on your

934
01:06:14,500 --> 01:06:15,500
terms.

935
01:06:15,500 --> 01:06:21,260
Join Mark and his guest next week for another lively discussion on proactively aging on your

936
01:06:21,260 --> 01:06:26,780
terms, connecting you to the professional advice of his special guests with the goal of

937
01:06:26,780 --> 01:06:30,100
creating better days throughout the aging process.

938
01:06:30,100 --> 01:06:32,540
Your host has been Mark Turnbull.

939
01:06:32,540 --> 01:06:37,980
Join Mark and his guest every week on aging today, your podcast to exploring your options

940
01:06:37,980 --> 01:06:39,780
for aging on your terms.

941
01:06:39,780 --> 01:06:46,860
And when I'm old and grey, you make me feel the way I feel today.

942
01:06:46,860 --> 01:06:50,780
Cause you make me feel so.

943
01:06:50,780 --> 01:06:53,940
You make me feel so.

944
01:06:53,940 --> 01:06:59,300
You make me feel so young.

945
01:06:59,300 --> 01:07:01,700
So young.

946
01:07:01,700 --> 01:07:04,780
You make me feel so young.

947
01:07:04,780 --> 01:07:06,100
You make me feel so young.

948
01:07:06,100 --> 01:07:08,680
(guitar music)

949
01:07:08,680 --> 01:07:10,680
(Music)